armies sent by muhammad faced the Byzantines outside the Arab peninsula once and they lost, around where is palestine now, they could say it was Syria
Dhimmisays
he existed but his behaviour was as it is known
mortimersays
To Dhimmi … some scholars now claim that the earliest references to ‘mohammed’ seem to be an HONORIFIC EPITHET given to the leader of the Arab movement, rather than a personal name.
Mohammed is thus similar to the ROMANS’ honorific epithet of ‘AUGUSTUS’ (Latin) and ‘SEBAIOS’ (Greek). The CALIPH (successor) is the equivalent of CAESAR and before the term CALIPH was generally adopted (800s) the term ‘mohammed’ would have referred to the AMIR AL-MUMINEEN (captain of the believers).
The reference to the army of mhmt near Gaza probably refers to ‘augustus’ of the movement, but his actual name and patronymic are not given … unlike the standard Arab practice of referring to a man by his first name and patronymic.
Was there one ‘mohammed’ or a number of historical figures and legends who were EDITED to form the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) which is now being deconstructed.
Dhimmisays
The unification of Arab tribes must have been done under some leader even if the later descriptions differ from the reality
Dhimmisays
There is a hypothesis that Meca was in fact Petra, there are books about the orientations of quiblas. Meca was a center of trade, it was walled, it had agriculture , grapes, was not desert like Meca
Dhimmisays
Mignana , as Asyrian priest proves using many examples that Koran is inspired by the Syriac Bible due to language of the koran.. The article was published early 20th century
mortimersays
Many scholars now believe that Omar was the role model for ‘mohammed’. Omar was called ‘al-FAROOQ’ (the Redeemer … i.e. the redeemer of Israel). Omar militarily took Israel from the Romans and ‘redeemed’ it (i.e. bought it back) for the the Semitic Jews and Arabs as the center of their religions.
Early historic ‘Islam’ seems focused on Jerusalem.
Dhimmisays
How do you explain the indisputable account of removal of jews from Arabia and how did he redeem the jews since under romans jews had a client state, under Islamic rule they had no state . Omar was a companion and a redeemer of arabs maybe and in fact he took part as companion to the three wars of Muhammad with the jews and their muder, enslavement and expelling
Infidelsays
I wasn’t aware that RS’ books were available in India – and I’m pretty sure they’re banned in Pakistan. I’ve heard Apostate Imam on some Indian YouTube channels as well, although I don’t normally follow him
3:00 Are there mentions of the other people around Mohammed who supposedly ran the Rashidun caliphate? Abu Baqr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, et al? Who was the political or military leader of the Arabs when they first started assailing the Byzantine and Sassanids in the mid 7th century?
12:00 It’s a fascinating observation that most of the hadiths were written by Iranians, and they searched for their material among denizens of the Abbasid and Samanid empires, but didn’t go back to Arabia for any of that. One strike against this theory, though, is why would Iranians actively work to invent a religion whose foundation lies outside their territory? Even during Sassanid rule, while Eastern Arabia was a part of their empire, Mecca and Medina were not
29:00 I am assuming that the ‘King of Jotenheim’ is an Indian poster. In India, the most celebrated Sufi saint is Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti. He was one of the generals in Mohammed Ghori’s army, and after the capture of Delhi, he captured Ajmer, which was the capital of the Delhi ruler Prithviraj Chauhan. In Ajmer, he made it a point to slaughter cows near Hindu temples to show his contempt for Hindus, and also had a number of temples destroyed. According to some accounts, his forces were also responsible for the gang-rape of Queen Samyukta, Prithviraj Chauhan’s wife, who died as a result (although some accounts claim that the queen committed jauhar to avoid falling into muslim hands). Also, both Timur/Tamerlane as well as all Mughal emperors (being his descendants) were Sufis, and they committed the largest genocides in islam. Hindus who honor this ‘saint’ ought to be ashamed of themselves
33:00 The Ahmadiya claim that they’re the fastest growing religion is capable of being true in terms of percentages. If one is going for a membership of 1 to a membership of 10, that’s a 900% increase. If one is going from 100 to 109, that’s a 9% increase. So obviously, Ahmadiya would grow faster than either sunnis or shi’a, for this reason alone. Also, like the Apostate Imam noted, Ahmadiyas live in the West but still hate the West, even though they are persecuted in muslim countries: this should be a salutary lesson to those who think Uyghurs should get refugee status in the West
35:30 On RS mentioning that he’d love to visit India, Mahamandaleshwar Yati Narasinghnand Giri (previously known as Swami Yati Narasinghnand Saraswati before his promotion to the head of the Juna Akhara, one of the largest conference of Hindu saints) has stated that he plans to hold a global summit on all religions – excluding islam, and RS was one of the names he mentioned that he planned to invite
41:00 Stories of talking animals and trees making it to the ‘sahih’ hadiths during the filtering processes of Buqhari and Muslim is just hilarious! I want to read the hadiths that were rejected! Also, as he notes, Mecca was quite a zoo ? ?
47:00 The various statements on Christians seems to explain why the Arabs conquered Damascus so easily. Apparently, in Syria, there was a Christian sect that was at odds w/ the Eastern Orthodox church of the Byzantines, and so they welcomed the Arabs. So it would have been this church that might have influenced the Umayyads in Damascus, and the directions of islam
This guy was an imam? He sounds like a kid in his 20s
mortimersays
Reply to Infidel: The greatest of the hadith compilers was BUKHARI who was from KHORASAN in modern-day UZBEKISTAN.
Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl al-Bukhārī (Persian: بخاری, ) (19 July 810 – 1 September 870), commonly referred to as Imam al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari, was a Persian Islamic scholar who was born in Bukhara (early Khorasan and present day Uzbekistan).
Most of figures in early Islamic paintings have distinctly Asiatic features from central Asia to the north of India. They should resemble Arabs, but they do not appear to be like Arabs at all.
mortimersays
This is a very fine discussion and it is wonderful news that Robert Spencer has a big following in India. When Indians are inspired to research the historicity of Mohammed, the Koran and Mecca, the future prospects of Islam will diminish considerably.
Many fine points were raised in this discussion about the NORTHERN ORIGINS of Islam in Persia, Syria and Iraq which all seem inexplicably important in foundational Islam.
The Koran plagiarizes many texts that would only have been available in Syria and Iraq at the time the Koran was supposedly written.
gregbeethamsays
The so called ‘traditions’ in the Hadiths about Muhammad don’t correspond with reality of the time because Mecca was an unknown backwater that existed in isolation far from civilization so how would any narrator of the life of Muhammad even know about him when they were writing the stuff in locations like Kufah, Baghdad, Petra, Damascus and even Persia and Afghanistan which were so remote from where Muhammad was supposed to have lived and performed all his deeds? It just doesn’t make any sense.
Muhammad was a fabrication the story tellers concocted and placed deliberately in such a remote location because that was the only way they could make the story succeed simply because there was nobody to challenge it and that’s because no group of people of any significance lived there in reality at the time.
Ecosse1314says
Exactly.Patricia Crone ,Dr Jay Smith and others have conclusively proved that mecca was never on a trade route. No maps showed mecca till 900AD. No one ever mentioned mecca til 750AD.
So reports of mo being a trader from mecca are false.
European pagansays
Robert, you are a brave man, you do everything with name and photo, it’s dangerous, in Germany, people like you get 24 hours / day police protection
Infidelsays
I did notice that Apostate Imam doesn’t release his picture, just an icon of some medieval Saracen. Hearing his voice, I was surprised that he was once an imam
gregbeethamsays
He is probably in a highly dangerous location should his identity be revealed so he provides no self image and uses a voice altering app as well I’d say.
Infidelsays
He mentioned that he lives in London. Which probably matches your description. But I don’t see how London is less dangerous than anywhere in India, where he could have changed his identity and moved to a non-muslim area within the country
Islam is a composite of lifted and plagiarized sources put together by the Abbasids. Most likely it began as a Judeo-Christian heresy with Indian, Persian, and Sabían influences. Even the name Muhammad itself can’t be trusted. It is a title, the praised one.
Clifford Fodorsays
Did Mohammad exist? Who cares? This real or unreal person still has his evil book that is adhere to by over 2 billion people worldwide. Why don’t you work on something else, Robert? like–how to put an end to this evil religion.
Ecosse1314says
I think proving the non-existence of mo and mecca are vitally important in disproving Islam.
It may take a while but muslims will drift away when they find their religions origins are fictitious.
Nobody least of all RS expects 100% apostasy.
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Dhimmi says
armies sent by muhammad faced the Byzantines outside the Arab peninsula once and they lost, around where is palestine now, they could say it was Syria
Dhimmi says
he existed but his behaviour was as it is known
mortimer says
To Dhimmi … some scholars now claim that the earliest references to ‘mohammed’ seem to be an HONORIFIC EPITHET given to the leader of the Arab movement, rather than a personal name.
Mohammed is thus similar to the ROMANS’ honorific epithet of ‘AUGUSTUS’ (Latin) and ‘SEBAIOS’ (Greek). The CALIPH (successor) is the equivalent of CAESAR and before the term CALIPH was generally adopted (800s) the term ‘mohammed’ would have referred to the AMIR AL-MUMINEEN (captain of the believers).
The reference to the army of mhmt near Gaza probably refers to ‘augustus’ of the movement, but his actual name and patronymic are not given … unlike the standard Arab practice of referring to a man by his first name and patronymic.
Was there one ‘mohammed’ or a number of historical figures and legends who were EDITED to form the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) which is now being deconstructed.
Dhimmi says
The unification of Arab tribes must have been done under some leader even if the later descriptions differ from the reality
Dhimmi says
There is a hypothesis that Meca was in fact Petra, there are books about the orientations of quiblas. Meca was a center of trade, it was walled, it had agriculture , grapes, was not desert like Meca
Dhimmi says
Mignana , as Asyrian priest proves using many examples that Koran is inspired by the Syriac Bible due to language of the koran.. The article was published early 20th century
mortimer says
Many scholars now believe that Omar was the role model for ‘mohammed’. Omar was called ‘al-FAROOQ’ (the Redeemer … i.e. the redeemer of Israel). Omar militarily took Israel from the Romans and ‘redeemed’ it (i.e. bought it back) for the the Semitic Jews and Arabs as the center of their religions.
Early historic ‘Islam’ seems focused on Jerusalem.
Dhimmi says
How do you explain the indisputable account of removal of jews from Arabia and how did he redeem the jews since under romans jews had a client state, under Islamic rule they had no state . Omar was a companion and a redeemer of arabs maybe and in fact he took part as companion to the three wars of Muhammad with the jews and their muder, enslavement and expelling
Infidel says
I wasn’t aware that RS’ books were available in India – and I’m pretty sure they’re banned in Pakistan. I’ve heard Apostate Imam on some Indian YouTube channels as well, although I don’t normally follow him
3:00 Are there mentions of the other people around Mohammed who supposedly ran the Rashidun caliphate? Abu Baqr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, et al? Who was the political or military leader of the Arabs when they first started assailing the Byzantine and Sassanids in the mid 7th century?
12:00 It’s a fascinating observation that most of the hadiths were written by Iranians, and they searched for their material among denizens of the Abbasid and Samanid empires, but didn’t go back to Arabia for any of that. One strike against this theory, though, is why would Iranians actively work to invent a religion whose foundation lies outside their territory? Even during Sassanid rule, while Eastern Arabia was a part of their empire, Mecca and Medina were not
29:00 I am assuming that the ‘King of Jotenheim’ is an Indian poster. In India, the most celebrated Sufi saint is Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti. He was one of the generals in Mohammed Ghori’s army, and after the capture of Delhi, he captured Ajmer, which was the capital of the Delhi ruler Prithviraj Chauhan. In Ajmer, he made it a point to slaughter cows near Hindu temples to show his contempt for Hindus, and also had a number of temples destroyed. According to some accounts, his forces were also responsible for the gang-rape of Queen Samyukta, Prithviraj Chauhan’s wife, who died as a result (although some accounts claim that the queen committed jauhar to avoid falling into muslim hands). Also, both Timur/Tamerlane as well as all Mughal emperors (being his descendants) were Sufis, and they committed the largest genocides in islam. Hindus who honor this ‘saint’ ought to be ashamed of themselves
33:00 The Ahmadiya claim that they’re the fastest growing religion is capable of being true in terms of percentages. If one is going for a membership of 1 to a membership of 10, that’s a 900% increase. If one is going from 100 to 109, that’s a 9% increase. So obviously, Ahmadiya would grow faster than either sunnis or shi’a, for this reason alone. Also, like the Apostate Imam noted, Ahmadiyas live in the West but still hate the West, even though they are persecuted in muslim countries: this should be a salutary lesson to those who think Uyghurs should get refugee status in the West
35:30 On RS mentioning that he’d love to visit India, Mahamandaleshwar Yati Narasinghnand Giri (previously known as Swami Yati Narasinghnand Saraswati before his promotion to the head of the Juna Akhara, one of the largest conference of Hindu saints) has stated that he plans to hold a global summit on all religions – excluding islam, and RS was one of the names he mentioned that he planned to invite
41:00 Stories of talking animals and trees making it to the ‘sahih’ hadiths during the filtering processes of Buqhari and Muslim is just hilarious! I want to read the hadiths that were rejected! Also, as he notes, Mecca was quite a zoo ? ?
47:00 The various statements on Christians seems to explain why the Arabs conquered Damascus so easily. Apparently, in Syria, there was a Christian sect that was at odds w/ the Eastern Orthodox church of the Byzantines, and so they welcomed the Arabs. So it would have been this church that might have influenced the Umayyads in Damascus, and the directions of islam
This guy was an imam? He sounds like a kid in his 20s
mortimer says
Reply to Infidel: The greatest of the hadith compilers was BUKHARI who was from KHORASAN in modern-day UZBEKISTAN.
Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl al-Bukhārī (Persian: بخاری, ) (19 July 810 – 1 September 870), commonly referred to as Imam al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari, was a Persian Islamic scholar who was born in Bukhara (early Khorasan and present day Uzbekistan).
Most of figures in early Islamic paintings have distinctly Asiatic features from central Asia to the north of India. They should resemble Arabs, but they do not appear to be like Arabs at all.
mortimer says
This is a very fine discussion and it is wonderful news that Robert Spencer has a big following in India. When Indians are inspired to research the historicity of Mohammed, the Koran and Mecca, the future prospects of Islam will diminish considerably.
Many fine points were raised in this discussion about the NORTHERN ORIGINS of Islam in Persia, Syria and Iraq which all seem inexplicably important in foundational Islam.
The Koran plagiarizes many texts that would only have been available in Syria and Iraq at the time the Koran was supposedly written.
gregbeetham says
The so called ‘traditions’ in the Hadiths about Muhammad don’t correspond with reality of the time because Mecca was an unknown backwater that existed in isolation far from civilization so how would any narrator of the life of Muhammad even know about him when they were writing the stuff in locations like Kufah, Baghdad, Petra, Damascus and even Persia and Afghanistan which were so remote from where Muhammad was supposed to have lived and performed all his deeds? It just doesn’t make any sense.
Muhammad was a fabrication the story tellers concocted and placed deliberately in such a remote location because that was the only way they could make the story succeed simply because there was nobody to challenge it and that’s because no group of people of any significance lived there in reality at the time.
Ecosse1314 says
Exactly.Patricia Crone ,Dr Jay Smith and others have conclusively proved that mecca was never on a trade route. No maps showed mecca till 900AD. No one ever mentioned mecca til 750AD.
So reports of mo being a trader from mecca are false.
European pagan says
Robert, you are a brave man, you do everything with name and photo, it’s dangerous, in Germany, people like you get 24 hours / day police protection
Infidel says
I did notice that Apostate Imam doesn’t release his picture, just an icon of some medieval Saracen. Hearing his voice, I was surprised that he was once an imam
gregbeetham says
He is probably in a highly dangerous location should his identity be revealed so he provides no self image and uses a voice altering app as well I’d say.
Infidel says
He mentioned that he lives in London. Which probably matches your description. But I don’t see how London is less dangerous than anywhere in India, where he could have changed his identity and moved to a non-muslim area within the country
Alfredo says
Islam is a composite of lifted and plagiarized sources put together by the Abbasids. Most likely it began as a Judeo-Christian heresy with Indian, Persian, and Sabían influences. Even the name Muhammad itself can’t be trusted. It is a title, the praised one.
Clifford Fodor says
Did Mohammad exist? Who cares? This real or unreal person still has his evil book that is adhere to by over 2 billion people worldwide. Why don’t you work on something else, Robert? like–how to put an end to this evil religion.
Ecosse1314 says
I think proving the non-existence of mo and mecca are vitally important in disproving Islam.
It may take a while but muslims will drift away when they find their religions origins are fictitious.
Nobody least of all RS expects 100% apostasy.