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mortimersays
This question (Did ‘Mohammed’ Exist?) is ultra-important because once the traditional narrative about Islam’s foundations is DEBUNKED with modern research, Muslims will lose their faith in this vicious, bigoted Death Cult.
The real Mohammed seems to have been a will-o-the-wisp character from southern Iraq nicknamed ‘Abu Qabisa’ (the father of sacrificial sheep) who led the Arabs in a number of successful raids against the Byzantines, pushing them up into northern Syria. Many legends developed about Mohammed in a way similar to the legends about King Arthur and Robin Hood.
Once Muslims realize there are serious holes in the narrative of foundational Islam, they will leave Islam like a massive dam breaking.
observersays
mortimer says
Dec 8, 2020 at 9:55 pm
Once Muslims realize there are serious holes in the narrative of foundational Islam, they will leave Islam like a massive dam breaking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have stated on this forum, Mortimer, that Muslims leave Islam on pain of death, which is what stops them from departing.
Yet now you see them departing “…like a massive dam breaking” upon realisation that there are serious holes in the narrative foundational islam.
I lack your certainty.
It seems to me that they cannot cope with truth at all. Of late they seem to resemble a cornered spitting cobra. I see this escalating. The more the truth is exposed, the more they flare up.
To all the phenomanally courageous researchers out there on this life-denying cult: MY DEEPEST RESPECT.
gravenimagesays
+1
eduardo odraudesays
There are different reactions in the Muslim community to criticisms of Islam. As David Wood has pointed out, ours is the first generation in history to have widely available access to translations of the main Islamic source texts, combined with the ability to expose those texts to Muslims around the globe. Many Muslims are certainly leaving Islam. Others, as you note, become like a “cornered spitting cobra.” Like any other totalitarian system, it inexorably collapses as light is persistently focused on it. Most Muslims do not know that much about Islam. The imams and Islamic religious teachers know. When ordinary Muslims are told what their texts show about Muhammad, at first they might shout “liar!” at the Islam-critic. But then they go to the specific source texts the critic cites and discover that the criticisms were not lies. Muhammad actually did the things the critics accuse him of! Then many Muslims start to fall away from Islam.
william carrsays
Islam’s support is mainly among the poor and ignorant. Their faith in ‘allah’ is what keeps them going, much like the Christians of the Middle Ages, and the poor of many countries today as well.
As long as they believe the lies of their clerics (all evil comes from Jews and non believers etc.) they will not change.
eduardo odraudesays
A lot the most fervent jihadists and Islamic fanatics have been educated people from middle class and wealthy backgrounds. Jihad is not caused by poverty or disadvantage. It is caused by people’s belief in the Qur’an and Hadith and the decision to follow the example of Muhammad.
gravenimagesays
So true, Eduardo.
Samsays
He existed and his material belongings can be seen at museum in Istanbul and Cairo… very silly topic, even his grave is in a huge mosque.
gravenimagesays
There is no reference to Muhammed for centuries after he supposedly lived. The idea that no one should be allowed to study, and should instead have to swallow unsubstantiated calims is grotesque.
Then, Robert Spencer does not say that Muhammed did not exist–he merely posits the question and examins the historical evidence.
The historicity of Jesus and Gautama Buddha have been studied–and disputed–for a long time. Moreover, no scholar has to accept the claims of every reliquary and site.
“Sam” here obvioiusly undersgtands nothing about the study of history.
Worst, though, it is only Muslims that threaten people over the scholarly study of history.
eduardo odraudesays
Sam, are you serious?
“His” material belongings? How do you know those are Muhammad’s material belongings? You don’t. You’ve never thought critically about the issue. You just believe what someone told you, perhaps mommy and daddy.
“His” grave? Are you serious? Are you really trying to pretend that there is a scientific consensus about where Muhammad’s grave is? Between 632 and today, there was no chain of custody over Muhammad’s body or his grave — assuming for the moment that he even existed, another subject about which there is no scientific consensus.
No wonder scholarship in the Islamic world is in such a frightfully weak state. Whoever invented Islam, his invention destroyed freedom of thought and freedom of speech and thus gravely damaged the critical thinking capacity of those ruled by Islam. But don’t worry. If you leave Islam, you can still start to develop critical thinking abilities.
The average moslem is ruled by a strict theology and a rigid set of rules. The imams have power, money, influence without the need to work. The Imams, priests and witch doctors of thousands of ‘gods’ have had the power for over 300k years. They won’t want to give that up.
random infidelsays
no. Islam has only existed since it was made up ~1400 years ago, even by Muslims’ own reckoning.
eduardo odraudesays
Which priests? Some priests have had power, others said “my kingdom is not of this world” and chose to share power and to serve.
The claim to perfect preservation of the Quran cannot be right. But concluding that Muhammad did not exist is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Archaeology is always ‘a thing of shreds and patches’ and we often have few texts or ones written a long time after the events they describe. I am thinking of writing a book to answer Robert Spencer’s case.
gravenimagesays
Robert Spencer asks if Muhammad existed–he does not claim that he did not exist. Are you going to counter the asking of that question? How would that work?
I would be interested in reading your conclusions, though.
Keyssays
See ! Mohammad is not so bad as anti-jihadists say !
He did not even exist.
eduardo odraudesays
Good one.
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mortimer says
This question (Did ‘Mohammed’ Exist?) is ultra-important because once the traditional narrative about Islam’s foundations is DEBUNKED with modern research, Muslims will lose their faith in this vicious, bigoted Death Cult.
The real Mohammed seems to have been a will-o-the-wisp character from southern Iraq nicknamed ‘Abu Qabisa’ (the father of sacrificial sheep) who led the Arabs in a number of successful raids against the Byzantines, pushing them up into northern Syria. Many legends developed about Mohammed in a way similar to the legends about King Arthur and Robin Hood.
Once Muslims realize there are serious holes in the narrative of foundational Islam, they will leave Islam like a massive dam breaking.
observer says
mortimer says
Dec 8, 2020 at 9:55 pm
Once Muslims realize there are serious holes in the narrative of foundational Islam, they will leave Islam like a massive dam breaking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have stated on this forum, Mortimer, that Muslims leave Islam on pain of death, which is what stops them from departing.
Yet now you see them departing “…like a massive dam breaking” upon realisation that there are serious holes in the narrative foundational islam.
I lack your certainty.
It seems to me that they cannot cope with truth at all. Of late they seem to resemble a cornered spitting cobra. I see this escalating. The more the truth is exposed, the more they flare up.
To all the phenomanally courageous researchers out there on this life-denying cult: MY DEEPEST RESPECT.
gravenimage says
+1
eduardo odraude says
There are different reactions in the Muslim community to criticisms of Islam. As David Wood has pointed out, ours is the first generation in history to have widely available access to translations of the main Islamic source texts, combined with the ability to expose those texts to Muslims around the globe. Many Muslims are certainly leaving Islam. Others, as you note, become like a “cornered spitting cobra.” Like any other totalitarian system, it inexorably collapses as light is persistently focused on it. Most Muslims do not know that much about Islam. The imams and Islamic religious teachers know. When ordinary Muslims are told what their texts show about Muhammad, at first they might shout “liar!” at the Islam-critic. But then they go to the specific source texts the critic cites and discover that the criticisms were not lies. Muhammad actually did the things the critics accuse him of! Then many Muslims start to fall away from Islam.
william carr says
Islam’s support is mainly among the poor and ignorant. Their faith in ‘allah’ is what keeps them going, much like the Christians of the Middle Ages, and the poor of many countries today as well.
As long as they believe the lies of their clerics (all evil comes from Jews and non believers etc.) they will not change.
eduardo odraude says
A lot the most fervent jihadists and Islamic fanatics have been educated people from middle class and wealthy backgrounds. Jihad is not caused by poverty or disadvantage. It is caused by people’s belief in the Qur’an and Hadith and the decision to follow the example of Muhammad.
gravenimage says
So true, Eduardo.
Sam says
He existed and his material belongings can be seen at museum in Istanbul and Cairo… very silly topic, even his grave is in a huge mosque.
gravenimage says
There is no reference to Muhammed for centuries after he supposedly lived. The idea that no one should be allowed to study, and should instead have to swallow unsubstantiated calims is grotesque.
Then, Robert Spencer does not say that Muhammed did not exist–he merely posits the question and examins the historical evidence.
The historicity of Jesus and Gautama Buddha have been studied–and disputed–for a long time. Moreover, no scholar has to accept the claims of every reliquary and site.
“Sam” here obvioiusly undersgtands nothing about the study of history.
Worst, though, it is only Muslims that threaten people over the scholarly study of history.
eduardo odraude says
Sam, are you serious?
“His” material belongings? How do you know those are Muhammad’s material belongings? You don’t. You’ve never thought critically about the issue. You just believe what someone told you, perhaps mommy and daddy.
“His” grave? Are you serious? Are you really trying to pretend that there is a scientific consensus about where Muhammad’s grave is? Between 632 and today, there was no chain of custody over Muhammad’s body or his grave — assuming for the moment that he even existed, another subject about which there is no scientific consensus.
No wonder scholarship in the Islamic world is in such a frightfully weak state. Whoever invented Islam, his invention destroyed freedom of thought and freedom of speech and thus gravely damaged the critical thinking capacity of those ruled by Islam. But don’t worry. If you leave Islam, you can still start to develop critical thinking abilities.
Relic says
7th century qu’ranick material
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG_k5CSYKhg&list=RDvAHkYynwIFg&index=16
Christopher Watson says
The average moslem is ruled by a strict theology and a rigid set of rules. The imams have power, money, influence without the need to work. The Imams, priests and witch doctors of thousands of ‘gods’ have had the power for over 300k years. They won’t want to give that up.
random infidel says
no. Islam has only existed since it was made up ~1400 years ago, even by Muslims’ own reckoning.
eduardo odraude says
Which priests? Some priests have had power, others said “my kingdom is not of this world” and chose to share power and to serve.
Frank says
The claim to perfect preservation of the Quran cannot be right. But concluding that Muhammad did not exist is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Archaeology is always ‘a thing of shreds and patches’ and we often have few texts or ones written a long time after the events they describe. I am thinking of writing a book to answer Robert Spencer’s case.
gravenimage says
Robert Spencer asks if Muhammad existed–he does not claim that he did not exist. Are you going to counter the asking of that question? How would that work?
I would be interested in reading your conclusions, though.
Keys says
See ! Mohammad is not so bad as anti-jihadists say !
He did not even exist.
eduardo odraude says
Good one.