Well that is a nice way to say thank you for the concession now we want more... Israel may never find peace and existence from the Palastines, there is no pleasing these people's, they are like leaches just sucking the blood out.

Posted by: chuck at December 24, 2005 9:47 AM

"Human Rights Watch, for instance, says that such a cutoff would constitute collective punishment of a civilian population under international law."

What about Palestinians firing rockets indiscriminatly into Israel? Does that constitute collective punishment of a civilian population under international law? It's curious, isn't it, that Palestinian attacks on Jews are not considered violations of international law by so-called human rights groups, but reasonable attempts by Israel to prevent those attacks are.

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at December 24, 2005 10:47 AM

The idea of the marches, or fortified border area, is as old as the Romans. To protect against an implacable enemy, to keep those barbarians far from the gates, the state ideally holds onto some territory useful only or mainly as a buffer. That is what Gaza was. Though Israel had and has legal, moral, and historic rights to Gaza (see the League of Nations' Mandate for Palestine, see the history of international law, see the history of the world) the Israeli presence, civilian and military, in Gaza was deemed, by Sharon, a "practical" one. By giving up Gaza, however, Israel limited its "Limes Islamicus" or rather wiped it out, across the southern invasion route, altogether.

Stupid people, and stupidly-led countries, learn only from their own experience, and sometimes not even from that. Intelligent people, and intelligently-led countries, learn from the experience of the past, the experience of others, and their own past experience (every treaty the Israelis have signed with Muslim states and groups have turned out to be based on the model of the "Treaty ofAl-Hudaibiyyah," every yielding out of "practical" considerations -- as the withdrawal from southern Lebanon -- does only temporary good and results in increased long-term danger).

Israel's folly is not to be blamed on Israel alone. The entire Western world, oblivious to the nature of the threat to Israel, and keen to throw the Arabs and Muslims some sop because it is not understood that this will merely whet, rather than sate, Arab and Muslim appetites (not least in Europe, where triumphalism will spur others on), has helped to confuse and demoralize the Israelis. But Israel's own confusion about Islam, understandable for a while (when they were attempting to have such Muslim allies as Iran under the Shah, and Turkey pre-Erdogan or despite Erdogan), and the inability of the Israelis to mount any campagin to properly identify the nature of the implacalbe, unassuagable, campaign against it as an Infidel state on land once controlled by Islam (but it is not Israel, Sicily, Spain, much of central and southern Europe that is the only target of Islam, for in the end, its requirements include the entire globe -- it can't be otherwise. The Qur'an does not say: stop at the limits of what you achieved in 1000, or 1200, or 1500. No, the Qur'an and Hadith tell us that Islam "is to dominate and not to be dominated." Everywhere. All over the globe. And hundreds of millions of people devoutly believe that. Why shouldn't they? That's what they read, that's what they are taught. What's the surprise?

Posted by: Hugh at December 24, 2005 11:06 AM

I think Israel should just use Gaza as a bombing
and artillery range. Constant shelling should be the rule. Let Egypt take the refugees.

Posted by: American at December 24, 2005 1:13 PM

By allowing the conflict with the Palestinians to fester for decades and failing to characterize it for what it de facto is: WAR, Israel has boxed itself into the smallest of spaces where any defensive action taken against the 10,000 Arab attempts over the last five years to murder and maim Israelis is immediately pounced upon by the howlers of the Human Rights Racket. Thus, clearing buffer zones from whence rockets have been fired into Israeli cities, targeted assassinations of terrorist kingpins, the demolition of buildings used to hide weapons smuggling tunnels or snipe at civilians, fences, checkpoints, border closings and suspended work permits to prevent the entry of homicide bombers, locking up terrorist suspects under the age of 18 are all considered fair game for condemnation and demonization by HRW, Amnesty and the like.

By nature, war is a form of collective punishment inflicted on civilian populations on both sides of a military conflict. Cities are bombed, power stations sabotaged, economies wrecked, civilians killed. This is the terrible price of war and the reason Western democracies are so reluctant to engage in them. It is also the reason wars rarely extend beyond a few years. Eventually men and resources are exhausted and one side surrenders.

But in allowing itself to be sucked into an asymmetrical conflict, one where murderous acts are always ascribed to a handful of bad apples: "terrorists", where the Palestinian Authority is perpetually given a free pass for the bellicose behaviour of its populace while surveys and polls repeatedly demonstrate that Palestinians on the whole seek the violent eradication of Israel, and where only Israeli police actions are sanctioned (half-heartedly) by the "International Community", Israel is condemning itself to another century of bloodletting.

A victory for Hamas in the upcoming elections and the establishment of its charter calling for the destruction of Israel as official Palestinian policy is to be welcomed. The charade will be over and if it wishes to survive, Israel will be forced to take the gloves off. The ensuing WAR will be quick and decisive and we can leave it to the EU de-Islamization brigade to re-educate the newly-named "Gazans".

Posted by: Charles Martel at December 24, 2005 1:30 PM

Human Rights Watch and it's soul mate organization Amnesty International believe that any Jewish Israeli who is actually living in Israel constitutes a grave infraction of international law. Further, any Israeli who fights for his right to life constitutes the gravest infraction of international law.

Posted by: MJ at December 24, 2005 4:25 PM

Screw Islamic Hegemony Watch, and Islamic Internationale (their real names), there is not an honest bone in their corporate body..

The current deplorable state of Gaza is a paramount and prime example of the infantilism and failure of the Arab/Islamic mind. They turn into garbage overnight, that which was handed to them as gold.

And yet Bush pumps millions into Gaza, as did (surprisingly and disappointingly) Wolfensohn.

Money given to Muslims is a waste, they only know one thing and that is living off the labor of others, a legacy of ghazi raiders, booty, slavery and Insha'allah fatalism.

Every muslim country on earth is a failure and can't even feed it's own people without foreign aid, Jizyah, assistance.

It's bad enough the west is financing it's own suicide by buying their oil, but if they had no oil be sure that they would be the recipients of charity and foreign aid..even from Christian charities.

BTW, time for America to emulate Brazil. Brazil has switched, almot totally , to ethanol and GM has developed and manufactured a car (the Corsa) that seamlessly uses ethanol, gas or any combination thereof.

There is no justification for our dependency on oil, except that oil money is what drives American politics and policies, and it is the oil men that run the RNC and DNC.

Posted by: Nariz at December 24, 2005 7:06 PM

This is wrong since from January 2001 to August 2005 there were an average of over 100 Kassams a month, but in the four months since the Disengagement (mid-August to late December 2005) there have only been 39 Kassams per month on average. The IDF is frustrated not because the Kassams were a nuisance before and now they are pouring like rain, but because they are glad they have been reduced in number but they want them to stop altogether. Anyway, they have all the options they had before the Disengagement because they can always re-invade if they want. They are trying all the other options first, of course.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=95236

Defense/Middle East Kassams Continue Apace Despite Withdrawal from Gaza
11:53 Dec 21, '05 / 20 Kislev 5766 By Hillel Fendel

IDF figures show that the Disengagement from Gaza did not bring about a drop in rocket attacks against Sderot and the western Negev.

After a month of post-withdrawal quiet, there were 62 Kassam attacks in September (all in the second half of the month), 16 in October, 29 in November, and 49 so far this month. In total, then, there were 156 rockets since Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza this past August. Over 80 more Gaza-fired Kassams landed during this period inside Gaza, short of their targets.

Twenty-five Israelis, including 22 civilians, were wounded in the attacks, though none seriously.

Close to 6,000 rockets and shells were launched from PA-controlled Gaza at Israeli targets between January 2001 and August 2005 - an average of over 100 a month. The vast majority of them fell on Jewish communities in Gaza, and a relatively small portion were fired at the Negev.[snip]

Posted by: markjames at December 25, 2005 9:57 AM

A bit off topic but Nariz writes:
"BTW, time for America to emulate Brazil. Brazil has switched, almot totally , to ethanol and GM has developed and manufactured a car (the Corsa) that seamlessly uses ethanol, gas or any combination thereof."

That's a good idea. I'd go further and say that
we may need to renegotiate CAFTA and other
treaties so that multinationals don't screw up
the development of a local ethanol industry, but
the idea of moving away from oil is important and
ethanol is one of the few workable alternatives.

Besidea screwing the Saudis (which makes it worth
it!) it could help with a few other flagging
sectors of our economy.

Posted by: American at December 25, 2005 6:48 PM

Markjames,
there was a lot wrong with Sharon's so-called [misnamed] "disengagement" policy. But I won't go into every ugly aspect of it. I assure you and Hugh that many Israelis are very angry at Sharon over "disengagement" and other matters. Look at the talk-back on Hebrew-language websites such as nfc.co.il & nrg.co.il, etc. His new party is commonly called a refuge of crooks. You may know that he was saved from indictment due to political favoritism by the state prosecutor's office. Likewise, Ehud Baraq and Shim`on Peres.

Hugh points out that the march or defensive border zone goes way back to the Romans who called such as zone a limes. If I recall rightly, the Hasmonean [Macccabean] kings, before the Romans, had first set up a limes or border zone in the northern Negev, against raids by --guess whom-- the ARABS who had taken over the central and southern Negev. If the Hasmoneans did not do it first, then it was Herod, their usurper and successor, who first set up a limes in the northern Negev. The Romans later enhanced that limes, and settled veterans of the legions in the zone. The Romans maintained that limes for centuries. They too wanted to protect the settled lands against the Arab nomads. This was long before Islam sanctified the border raid. Joseph Schumpeter argues that Islam adopted Arab tribal culture, such as the razzia [ghazw].

Posted by: Eliyahu at December 26, 2005 4:58 AM

Hugh is right about confusion in Israel over the nature of Islam. Yet, there are contemporary Israeli scholars who do understand Islam very well, such as Moshe Sharon, Raphael Israeli, David Bukay, Mordekhai Nisan [author of a book on non-Arab & non-Muslims in the ME], etc. Some of their books are available in English. But the politicians are dumb about this subject or pretend to be dumb. And the TV is dumber than ever, dumber than it used to be, & making strenuous efforts to make everybody else dumb about Islam and history, etc. On the other hand, some young people are rather well informed and knowledgeable about these matters.

Posted by: Eliyahu at December 26, 2005 5:11 AM