Will wait for Naseem's take on what this means and where things are going.

Will Pak's dictator - the supposedly straight-talking "commando" Gen Musharraf, who's so concerned about Pak's "image" abroad that he blamed women's relief organizations with orcheatrating rape for publicity and aid funds - take note of how much his country's image is now enhanced in the west? Or maybe his real audience is the moslem minions who form Osama's current constituency?

I'm sure all this bloodletting will go along way in warming India's hearts. Seems it only takes half a spark to ignite mosque massacres in Pakiland. RAW and IB take note. Besides the bloodletters are the same drools who've terrorized Indians in Kashmir. Payback time, eh?

Posted by: voletti at October 7, 2005 7:21 AM

Will wait for Naseem's take on what this means and where things are going.

Will Pak's dictator - the supposedly straight-talking "commando" Gen Musharraf, who's so concerned about Pak's "image" abroad that he blamed women's relief organizations with orcheatrating rpe for publicity and aid funds - take note of how much his country's image is now enhanced in the west? Or maybe his real audience is the moslem minions who form Osama's current constituency?

I'm sure all this bloodletting will go along way in warming India's hearts. Seems it only takes half a spark to ignite mosque massacres in Pakiland. RAW and IB take note. Besides the bloodletters are the same drools who've terrorized Indians in Kashmir. Payback time, eh?

Posted by: voletti at October 7, 2005 7:21 AM

The members of the Ahmadiyya group are, by and large, and here and there only slightly, better educated, less closed to the big world, the real world, than other Muslims. After all, they, like have managed, despite mental straitjacket that Islam provides, to reject important parts of Islam, including a reduced role for Muhammad who is no longer seen as the Last, the Seal, of the Prophets (cf. in the United States, the Prophet Elijah Muhammad, whose followers are not regarded by Al Azhar as real Muslims, though they would no doubt be surprised to hear of their lowly status in the eyes of "real" Muslims).

The only "Muslim" to win a Nobel Prize in the sciences was Abdus Salam, a physicist, a member of the Ahmadiyya sect. One wonders if, had he been the other kind, the full-fledged kind, of Muslim, that he would have possessed a sufficient ability to maneuver in the world of uncertainty, and free inquiry, that the undertaking of science requires.

Imagine, with some sympathy, how difficult it must be to live in a Muslim society. At what stage do the handful of people who fight their way out mentally from that society declare themselves, and to whom? Isn't it far easier, and safer, to say nothing, but occasionally to indicate, by a word here or there, one's own distance from the True Believers, and should one encounter non-Muslims, to both wish to daringly show a little of that leg (intellectually speaking), by speaking not quite respectfully of Islam, but at the same time, out of filial piety and inherited distaste, born of all sorts of things (envy, anger, even that essential hostility to all things non-Muslim that comes with a Muslim mother's milk), if that Infidel himself offers any criticism of Islam, there is a counter-desire to immediately rally round the Green Flag of Islam, and engage in whatever taqiyya-and-tu-quoque nonsense comes to hand to fend off the disrespectful Infidel. An amazing mental show -- one you can experience for yourself, any day of the week, by merely engaging in conversation about Islam any outwardly advanced and Westernized and seemingly rational and affable Muslim. Just record (perhaps even surreptitiously tape) the results. It is fascinating -- could be the subject of a book or two: "How Muslims Think." Or you could simply visit the websites of ex-Muslims such as www.faithfreedom.org, where such matters are frequently discussed.

The Ahmadiyya are regarded by "real" Muslims as Infidels, though they themselves are horrified at that designation. After all, they, or their ancestors who became members of the sect, did not leave Islam altogether -- did not become, for example, Christians. That would involve real willingness to suffer for the faith.

Ahmadiyya Muslims are not limited to Pakistan. They have been successful missionaries missionaries in Africa, where the more easygoing version of Islam, until the Saudis started making their own calculated and sinister investments, was well received.

It is too much to ask of people within the totalitarianism of Islam to be brave, to openly leave the faith. But it is not too much to ask them not to participate, either in Internet discussions with the outside, or in the secret meeting-room of their own conscience, not to tell themselves the truth about Islam.

Ahmadiyya Islam is akin to Cro-Magnon man: a step up on the phylogenetic scale from the Pithecanthropus erectus of primitive unreformed Islam, but not quite there yet.

The next obvious move is out of Islam altogether. After all, if one is going to be persecuted as an Infidel even if one thinks of oneself as an (Ahmadiyya) "Muslim," why bother to remain connected to Islam at all? Why not to fresh fields, and pastures new?

Posted by: Hugh at October 7, 2005 8:19 AM

Hugh:

Since when did religious beliefs arise from logic?

Since when did new sects from any faith arise from much else than someone, or a group, deciding there was an aspect or two of the existing brand that didn't suit them, so they would just develop a new and improved (in their eyes) version?

Islam and its adherents are not unique in that sense. The problem, as we all know, lies in the fact that Muslims have yet to disown the extreme supremecist/triumphalist teachings of Mohammed which he used to justify conquest.

Strip that away from Islam -- and admittedly, these teachings are the raison d'etre, the lifeblood of the faith -- and you just have another monotheistic Judeo-Christian faith/sect.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 7, 2005 8:51 AM

Hello all,

I was out talking to my friends discussing what we were gonna do tonite when another came & told us of this dastradly and cowardly attack.

I know that many of you will have a smug smile & laugh (like Voletti who believes in payback) but believe me when I tell you that an attack on the Ahmadi in Pak is different to an attack on infedels in the West.

How? you will protests, people have died, and maimed. But it is the after effects and the support that is vastly different.

In the West the emergency services get together and help the injured and try to catch the perpetrators....no such help is available for the Ahmadi.

While the PAK police may outwardly express concern, nothing is ever done, no one is caught and cases ramain open....that is if an FIR (police report) is (allowed to be) raised in the 1st place.

The Punjab police have enormous power, with a flick of the hand your ability to raise an FIR is gone. Complain to a superior officer and you will pay ......big time and big style. There have been cases reported that " a big spontaneous crowd gathers outside a house...residents are dragged and beaten, a hand or finger cut...no police is seen or heard...and your house could be flamed".

Will anything be done, anyone caught...NO it's already known to us. Tomorrow it could be our mosque in Lahore, there have been bombs gone off in Lahore just a few days ago.

Why does Allah (swt) allow this to happen?....it is a test for the chosen Ahmadi...you have to persevere...to run the course...at least that is what my friends say....but me I am starting to have my doubts.

For example, the blood sucking sunni says he is chosen, the self-styled suicide Ali believer Shai says he is the chosen. The Borhas say they are the chosen ones, the Ahmadi say they are the chosen ones...but WHO decides on the chosen one.

Well that is what the Chaliphate would do....only that our Calipha already is the chosen one...but the Borhas say that too for their Chaliphate. And the Shia and sunni say...only on judgement day matey....the cahiphate WILL be there, so lets take everybody there, Hamda-dilla it is FARD, we will be saved. Well I say F**K them and their judgement day, I'm happy enough with my Caliphate, and he does not preach hatred.

That these bas*ards will get to Lahore....no doubt. How long will Naseem be around to put her perspective to you?..Allah Ta'ala will decide...but Inshalallah....I will not run.

Yesterday..... Yesterday, I was asking you to chill.. today ....although hot there is a chill here.

Posted by: Naseem at October 7, 2005 10:33 AM

Naseem:

I see your point vs attacks on Amaddiyas.

France's Jewish community has suffered similarly for quite a while, with the French authorities being painfully slow to deal with the situation, but they have finally been able to exhert some pressure, with help from the Jewish community around the world. I doubt you and your co-religionists can rely on similar resources, and, of course the French government, for all its faults, ain't the Pakistani government.

I hope you and your family stay safe and that you are able to keep in touch.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 7, 2005 12:52 PM

Naseem, do not worry, it is all part of Allah's (swt) plan. He knows all, and everything happens according to His wishes. Do you think we mere mortals can stop the will of Allah (swt)? If the Ahmadi were attacked and suffered greatly, then they obviously were not following the true path of Allah (swt). For Allah (swt) protects those who are pure in the way of Islam, does He not?

And if it comes to it, and Allah (swt) calls on you to take vengeance on the Ahmadi or the Kurds or the Shi'ites or Jews or Christians or Hindis or Buddhists, then as a devout Muslim you will have to follow that commandment and carry out His wishes. It is not for the devout to question or fret or to have fear. There is no retribution for following His wishes.

When He calls for more blood of infidels, then so shall it be done. So, do not worry yourself about chills, the sweater of Islam shall keep you warm.

Posted by: special_guest at October 7, 2005 1:48 PM

Naseem,
have you considered banding together with the rest of your group, and forming a mutual defense society?

I've heard that the Pakistani military is reluctant to mess with the tribal regions.
Why not get your folks together for protection, similar to how the tribes do it?
Create your own mini society, and make sure you have an armed presence near your borders.

You would be much harder to attack if you weren't scattered and isolated. That makes you easy prey.....

Your frequent use of the term infidel is insulting, but still and all I don't wish for you to be murdered.

Posted by: treehugger at October 7, 2005 6:15 PM

Naseem,
Be safe.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at October 7, 2005 9:10 PM

`For example, the blood sucking sunni says he is chosen, the self-styled suicide Ali believer Shai says he is the chosen. The Borhas say they are the chosen ones, the Ahmadi say they are the chosen ones...but WHO decides on the chosen one.

Well that is what the Chaliphate would do....only that our Calipha already is the chosen one...but the Borhas say that too for their Chaliphate. And the Shia and sunni say...only on judgement day matey....the cahiphate WILL be there, so lets take everybody there, Hamda-dilla it is FARD, we will be saved. Well I say F**K them and their judgement day`-posted by Naseem above

There. That`s the answer and it`s for the nons to make use of.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 1:01 AM

Naseem, much as I disagree with your religion, I pray God will protect you.

In this vale of tears, which has been the house of death ever since Adam ate the forbidden fruit, we deserve and expect no more that trouble and tears. Yet there is salvation in Jesus Christ, as he is offered in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. He is the one who rose from the dead (yes, I do not believe the Ahmadi nonsense that he lies buried in Kashmir)and rules from heaven; Muhammad remains dead and buried in Medina, awaiting the day of judgment with the rest of us sinners.

Posted by: Kepha at October 8, 2005 8:47 AM