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UPDATE 12/12/05: A new article by Daniel Pipes leads me to make this clarification: I do not know the quality of the information I was given by these sources. This has all been an extremely puzzling experience. I was approached with this evidence; I did not seek it out. It was confirmed by several parties. I presented it in good faith without ever saying (as some have charged) that it was necessarily accurate or true. But the circulation of this story -- before and after I got it -- explains why the Copts were so angry with Muslims in New Jersey at the time. As far as I know, the police examined this evidence and found it wanting. I do not know what the motives were of the friends of the Armanious family who told it to me and insisted on it, and continued to do so after the two thugs were arrested who were charged with this crime. I still have many unanswered questions. But I have nothing to go on.
A close friend of Hossam Armanious, the Coptic Christian who was brutally murdered in New Jersey along with his family, is the source of this information which comes to you exclusively from Jihad Watch:
The Armanious family had inspired several Muslims to convert to Christianity — or thought they had. These converts were actually practicing taqiyya, or religious deception, pretending to be friends of these Christians in order to strengthen themselves against them, as in Qur'an 3:28: "Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful -- he that does this has nothing to hope for from Allah -- except in self-defense."
Of course, the family, not suspecting the deception, was happy to see the "converted" men and willingly let them in to their home. That's why there was no sign of forced entry. Then the "converted" Muslims did their grisly work.
Many Copts are regarding the murders as a warning to the Coptic community as a whole, related to the increasing strife between Copts and Muslims in Egypt and the Copts' energetic efforts in America to get the truth out about the differences between Middle Eastern Christians and Muslims -- differences that the Islamic lobby, with its disingenuous talk of "Arab Americans," routinely glosses over and hopes you don't notice. The Copts, to their immense credit, have been particularly outspoken among Middle Eastern Christians about Muslim oppression. And yes, many are active on Pal Talk debating Muslims.
The nature of the warning? The murders send a signal from the Muslims to the Copts: we are going to behave here the same way we behaved in Egypt, and the First Amendment and American law enforcement will not protect you. Don't expect America to keep you safe from us. The oppression and harassment you thought you had left behind in Egypt has now come to you.
This means, if Armanious's friend is correct, that this is indeed America's Theo van Gogh murder: indication that all Muslims in the nation do not, as we are supposed to believe, unanimously accept the parameters of American pluralism. That at least some are willing to enforce Sharia penalties right here, right now.
But there are so many nominees for the Walter Duranty prize this time that most Americans have no clue of what's going on. Duranty, of course, was the New York Times reporter who knowingly covered up information about the genocidal famine Stalin caused and fueled in Ukraine, and won a Pulitzer Prize for his efforts. The Pinch Sulzberger Times of these dark days should dedicate the whole paper to Duranty's honor, and put his picture on the front page right next to "All the News That's Fit to Print."
Posted by Robert at January 20, 2005 5:05 PM
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Sounds plausible to me and hopefully this will help the law nail the depraved killers. I await more solid evidence of Muslim killers, it can turn out they were not involved but I wouldn't bet on it.
Posted by: dennisw![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at January 20, 2005 6:04 PM
In previous bias cases - whether against gays, blacks or others - the news media didn't shy away from the suggestion that bias played a roll. Indeed some of these cases became national news long before there was conclusive evidence that hate played a roll.
Given the pattern of jihadist attacks, like the pattern of klan attacks a century ago, this case should be in the national news as it is investigated. There are too many pieces to believe this is anything else but Islamic violence.
The Duranty goes to ...
Posted by: JasonP at January 20, 2005 6:13 PM
Some really obnoxious taqiyya is occuring on Abbas Kadhim's blog in the "exit strategy" thread. Note that Kadhim attends U Cal Berkeley and teaches there as well. His students are required to read his blog, which is a continuous stream of hatred of America. Please consider posting a few comments there. (He is very quick to attack and ban anybody who dares question his blatant pro-Islam, Antiamerican propaganda.)
I post there as "Anonymous Racist Coward", a name that I was called by his syncophant "Shirin".
Thanks.
at January 20, 2005 6:25 PM
This is very sad, this martyrs christians have to pray for us, we need them, greetings
Posted by: Franze at January 20, 2005 6:33 PM
Norseman, that was really a slap on the knee. "muhammad would not approve of the convert or die strategy" hmmm, seems the koran has a little to say about that. Please people read the koran and hadiths for yourselves. Don't believe what a muslim says about it even if he is your Professor.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at January 20, 2005 7:19 PM
Thanks for this story and PLEASE keep us posted! (no pun intended)
at January 20, 2005 7:56 PM
It was nauseating to see Ghazi Khankan, et. al., at the Meeting of the Faithful, (muslims only) in Jersey denouncing those who claimed muslims perpetrated this butchering of an innocent Christian family.
I actually heard one muslim woman lament that the feelings of muslims are being hurt by these unfounded accusations. Sticks and stones won't break your bones, but butchers with knives playing victim can kill you...
Posted by: jawa at January 20, 2005 8:21 PM
REMEMBER
Bush said there would be things in this war the American People would not Know about??
I don't believe he has gone weak kneaded??
Pjason will you stand and fight or just complain when things get ugly??
The President is trying to save us from the Ugly will he be able will our enemy let us??
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
U.S. Penalizes Chinese Firms for Iran Missile Aid
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005
WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration has quietly applied new sanctions against eight Chinese companies for helping Iran with its missile programs, a senior U.S. official said Tuesday.
Terrorists Kidnap Eight Chinese in Iraq
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Insurgents released a video Tuesday showing eight Chinese workers held hostage by gunmen who claim the men are employed by a construction company working with U.S. troops, in the latest abduction of foreigners in Iraq.
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
FBI Alerts Boston of Four Terror Suspects
NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, Jan. 20, 2005
BOSTON - The FBI notified law enforcement officials Wednesday to be on the lookout for four Chinese nationals described as possible terror suspects who may be headed to the Boston area
http://www.nationalreview.com/novak/novak200501200814.asp
January 20, 2005, 8:14 a.m.
Global Liberty
Toward a foreign policy for democratic nations.
EDITOR'S NOTE: This is the version of a speech presented at the Venice Conference IV on November 19, 2004, as a working paper for Center-Right Parties of the North Atlantic Alliance. Under the leadership of Senator Ferdinando Adornato of Italy, and drawing upon many sources, a public "charter" or "manifesto" is to be issued in 2005.
This speech is published here as prepared.
World War IV began in a long string of terrorist attacks, whose real nature went unrecognized until on September 11, 2001, huge billows of black smoke curled above New York City, Washington, D.C., and a field near Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.
This sudden outbreak of World War IV altered the strategic picture of the world.
3. Osama bin Laden has grasped the vulnerabilities of free and open societies today. Their technological networks are very complex, highly integrated, and easy to disrupt with precise acts of violence. Tall buildings like the skyscrapers of New York are manifestly vulnerable. The same is true of great suspension bridges, nuclear power plants, water reservoirs, communications hubs, even the virus-prone internet.
4. Bin Laden has demonstrated how relatively easy it is for a small, disciplined, highly trained cadre of warriors willing to die in the attempt to wreak horrific damage, and to terrorize entire nations (as in Spain recently).
5. The essence of asymmetric warfare today consists of three elements: (1) a non-state actor; (2) secretly or at least unofficially supported by rogue states (such as Iran) and/or weak states (which may have little control over vast sections of their own national territory); and (3) expertise in training terrorists in the clandestine disciplines and arts, and in the use of weapons of mass destruction that may be put on target by single persons choosing to (or at least willing to) die in the attempt. In addition, practitioners of asymmetric warfare make use of the internet for communications, and the relatively open travel systems of the West.
HAS HE REALLY OR ARE THEY ALL IN ON IT?? MOST HERE KNOW THE TRUTH BUT THE WORLD IS NOT READY TO KNOW THE TRUTH YET??
WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR THE WORLD TO DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE?
NO BUSH HAS HOPE WHAT WE DO WILL HELP END WHAT COULD HAPPEN?
WE ARE SEEING THIS WAR ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR THOSE WHO OPEN THEIR EYES??
YES PRAYERS HELP BUT THOSE WHO LIVE ARE THOSE WHO DEFEND AND FIGHT AGAINST THIS EVIL??
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004704.php#comments
January 19, 2005
Man gets 40 months in Jewish school firebombing
NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004705.php#comments
January 19, 2005
UK: Police investigate cleric's 'terror call'
About time. From ITV.com, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
Police are examining an internet sermon given by a radical cleric which reportedly called for young British Muslims to join al-Qaeda.
Syrian-born Omar Bakri Mohammed, 46, reportedly used a webcast to address his followers, claiming that Britain had become a "land of war" for the Muslim community.
HE IS CALLING FOR THE SAME THING THAT MUFFI CALL FOR WITH THE GERMANS IN WW2?? WHAT ARE THE ENGLISH GOING TO DO ABOUT SOMEONE ON THEIR SOIL DECLAIRING WAR ON THEM??
http://israel.net/timetospeak/20.htm
INFIDELS IN THE WORLD OF ISLAM
"Make war against the unbelievers . . . and be merciless against them"
-- The Koran, Sura 9
"O, Allah, destroy the usurper Jews and the vile Christians."
-- Mosque in Qatar, 9 August 2002
government broadcast of sermon
"O, Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O, Allah, destroy the Christians and their supporters and followers. Shake the ground under them, instill fear in their hearts, and freeze their blood."
-- Mosque in Yemen, 9 August 2002
government broadcast of sermon
BUT THE GROUND THAT SHOOK WAS MUSLUM LAND? BAM IRAN LOST 31,000 NOW WE HAVE THE QUAKE AND KILLER WAVE THAT KILLED SO MANY MULSUMS IN INDONESIA AND WHAT ABOUT THE LOCUS THAT HAS EATEN THE LANDS THAT STOLEN BY MULSUMS? ?
No we can not sell the man short he has asked his citizens to help once again did we hear??
WE SEE THING LIKE?
http://globalpolitician.com/articles.asp?ID=274&t=Nazi+Influence+on+the+Middle+East+During+WWII
http://www.barnabasfund.org/
RUSSIA - North Ossetia
Beslan School Hostages Appeal
11 Christians Killed in Kano as Christian/Muslim Violence Spirals in Plateau
05/13/2004
The town of Yelwa in Shendam District first saw violence on 24 February when Fulani Muslim fighters struck again, massacring some 48 Christians who fled to a church in a vain attempt to find refuge. Some reports suggest as many as 50 more may also have been killed, and over 100 Christians fled the town. Two days later Christians turned on their Muslim neighbours in the nearby town of Gerkawa, Mikang Local Government Area, killing 40 – 50 in retaliation for the massacre in Yelwa. Army units evacuated some 3000 Muslims from Gerkawa, relocating them to Yelwa and further strengthening the Muslim dominance of the town.
Tensions remained high in the region throughout March and April and exploded again into major violence in several villages in the border region of Plateau and Taraba States in late April when an estimated 100 people were tragically killed. The latest attack which has enraged Muslims across the country occurred in the aftermath of this violence, as on the weekend of 1 – 2 May Christian fighters attempted to retake Yelwa. (The town is now widely reported in the international media as a “mainly Muslim town” with no reference to the fact that this is only as a result of the massacre and driving out of Christians in February.) The deaths of 67 people have been confirmed in this latest bloody clash, with some estimating the total death toll at 200, 350 or even 630 people tragically slain.
BACKGROUND
Since September 2001 tensions in Plateau State between indigenous Christian/animist farming communities and ethnic Hausa/Fulani Muslim immigrants (mainly pastoralists) from North Nigeria have broken out into open violence. Over 6,500 people have been killed in clashes between the two communities, in which many Christian youths have been aggressors as well as defenders. Whilst the violence is predominantly economic and ethnic in nature there is also an important religious dimension with churches and mosques attacked and each group seeing the other as “Christians” or “Muslims”, synonymous with their ethnic identity. There is also clear evidence that many Muslim militants involved see the conflict in more overtly religious terms as a struggle to drive out Christians and Islamise large parts of the mainly-Christian Plateau State. Islamic militants from the neighbouring countries of Chad and Niger have been involved in some of the clashes.
ISN’T THIS WHAT THEY DID IN KOSOVO AND DO TO ISRAEL ALWAYS THE KILLER WHO PLAYS THE VICTIM NOW WE HAVE THE KILLERS IN OUR TOWNS??
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] All right. All right. You don't want to show this. You don't want to show this to the public.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it is on our screen.
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] It's not on the screens that the public sees. Right. I see it on this screen now. But this internal screen only. So he is holding a head, the head of a Serb that he cut off. So those are the 20.000 Mujahedin that were brought to the European • theatre of war through Clinton's policy, and most of them remained there
• Page 10308 • {16/111}
and some went to America and to other countries, and they went all around Europe. And then when they start beheading your own people in wars to come, then you will know what this is all about. There are many photographs of major crimes
RIGHT HERE IN THE USA AND THEY HAVE CALLED UP THEIR ARMYS AND REMEMBER LIEING IS PART OF THEIR WAY!!!
THE PRESS HAS TO INFORM THE PEOPLE EVEN IN TX NOW THERE IS A SMALL PART OF THIS WAR GOING ON DON'T THINK THE TX-ANS WILL LOSE BUT ??
THE LIBS ARE ON THE SIDE OF THE MUSSIS HAVE TO POINT OUT TO THEM THEY ARE IN DANGER TO??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces[HER PEOPLE] and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Evil Amen
at January 20, 2005 8:30 PM
You know what we do here in these threads and others we may visit is to try and arm ourselves and others with the knowledge of what is actually going on behind the ski-mask.
The threat has been coming for years and it has finally been made good on.
The strange twist that the supposedly converted actually would be the killers has me very perplexed. I just cant comprehend the deviousness that took place or how people could stoop to something so loooooowwwwwww.BASTARDS.
A Fourth generation war (4GW): One of the opponents is something other than than the armed forces of a state. (I'll Say)
Now we need to start a Mandate demanding the internment of all muslims here in CONUS; once interned go through and evaluate, go through and evaluate, go through and evaluate, each and every one of them NOW, lets shake that tree at the trunk and see what falls out of the top.
Posted by: Chuck at January 20, 2005 8:39 PM
Let's find out more before we start blaming the Muslims. After all, there are a lot of creeps in general running around that part of NJ. A lot of Muslims too!
Posted by: Jakester at January 20, 2005 9:51 PM
I am aware of the warning to muslims not to befriend non-muslims but if this story is true,(and it probably is) it is the first time I have heard of muslims pretending to convert to another faith and then murdering their proselytizers in retaliation. Damn, couldn't they just say "no?"
If muslims consider it justifiable to murder evangelists for encouraging them to convert to Christianity, then I guess every da'wa spewing muslim could be a target for the same fate.
Apparently it is illegal and punishable by death for non-muslims to proselytize muslims and the "victims" serve as judge, jury, and executioners. But in typical fashion, the old double standard applies to muslims. Wouldn't it be sad if the pious muslimas and their male Rottweilers at the da'wa stands in malls and universities were discovered one morning, still in their pajamas, their throats cut and their mouths stuffed with their Islamic propaganda?
at January 20, 2005 11:04 PM
Catherine
your posts are always interesting and very informative although.
Were these the words of MILOSEVITCH himself at the end of your post?
did he actually point to the supidity of the west in not realising that they would soon be the targets of beheadings?
its incredible that 99% of westerners were not aware that much of the Balkans war was Islamic Jihad.
CLinton has a lot to answer for and I hope he will be taken to task for his massive disinformation propaganda efforts.
at January 20, 2005 11:51 PM
Catherine,
Thank you for posting the Milosevic quote.
For those wanting to read more of this, copies of the transcript can be found online here
and the quote in question can be found here.
Search for page 10308.
f.g.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal
Posted by: f.g. at January 21, 2005 10:30 AM
What would really be interesting to know:
--- Has this close friend of Hossam Armanious shared this information with the police and FBI?
--- If so, what have the authorities done with such information?
Believing that the press and the Internet resources can help catch killers is idealistic in a "Green Hornet" sort of way, and I do admire that. Certainly, this can contribute in finding killers in a manhunt.
However, there are law enforcement organizations that DO THIS FOR A LIVING, and they should be out there trying to sort this information out!
Posted by: jeffreyimm at January 21, 2005 11:07 AM
Someone have seen "Savior" produced by Oliver Stone and starring by Dennis Quaid, watch it.
Posted by: Franze at January 21, 2005 11:43 AM
Jeffrey:
Be assured, they have this information.
Best
Robert Spencer
at January 21, 2005 12:29 PM
Could someone post a translation (if needed) of what Armanious actually said that produced the threat and got him and his family killed?
The world should see just how little it takes to get yourself killed by these people. Absolutely nothing anyone could say could justify murder.
f.g.
Posted by: f.g. at January 21, 2005 12:51 PM
"Sticks and stones won't break your bones, but butchers with knives playing victim can kill you...
Posted by: jawa at January 20, 2005 08:21 PM
You don't have it quite right. It seems that chatting on-line with Muslim fundamentalists can kill you, or, perhaps attempting to convert them will.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at January 21, 2005 1:16 PM
Seriously, doesn't anyone have a transcript of some of Armanious' stuff or know where it can be found?
I bet it was something along the lines of pointing out that Allah is really some ancient minor desert moon god which has been done here about a billion times.
f.g.
Posted by: f.g. at January 21, 2005 3:50 PM
JasonP: In previous bias cases - whether against gays, blacks or others - the news media didn't shy away from the suggestion that bias played a roll.
Yeah, like the Matthew Shepherd murder in Wyoming. The MSM trashed the entire State of Wyoming for months. Years later, the MSM comes out and says, 'oops, the Shepherd murder had nothing to do with his homosexuality'.
Then there are all the hoaxes of people, usually students, many female, claiming to have been attacked, raped, humiliated, insulted because of their sex or homosexuality. Candle-carrying nights of solidarity, campus newspaper editorials are printed, the White Man students are lectured as to their evil nature. Oops, it was a hoax.
Posted by: Jabba the Tutt at January 21, 2005 4:24 PM
F.G
thanks for the link to the Milosevirch trial.
Incredible that the judge seemed to withold those pictures from public view. And no wonder there is so little coverage on the MSM.
What a scandal!
at January 21, 2005 6:50 PM
Considering the smooth and fast coverup of the ritual murder that occured in Houston Texas last year, it would not surprise me to see this one dealt with the same way.
I guess the authorities think they can keep on hiding these religious crimes and make them go away.
Sooner or later, the lids going to pop off. And there isn't enough police protection for what will ensue. The clock is ticking.
Posted by: mshyde at January 21, 2005 7:22 PM
mshyde:
We had better start getting used to incidents of such ritual slaughter in our midst. This is bound to happen in the near term, in America particularly, as Americans take for granted that the first amendment grants them freedom of speech. They will excercise it and pay the price. But after several such slaughters of American infidels, they too will learn, that the first amendment is not absolute and is restricted by shariia.
The MSM is busy protecting muslim savages on the grounds that doing otherwise would lead to civil strife. However the truth is getting around. It is far better for the MSM and Western governments to come out with the truth now and handle the situation reasonably. Else the pressure cooker is going to blow, and then there will be hell to pay.
at January 21, 2005 10:46 PM
Catherine,
Thank you for posting the Milosevic quote.
f.g.
Posted by: f.g. at January 21, 2005 10:30 AM
Just wanted to see it again??
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her Amen
at January 22, 2005 12:31 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050120/ids_photos_ts/r3443670747.jpg
Posted by: cypherpunk at January 22, 2005 1:24 AM
Posted by Waterdragon: "You don't have it quite right. It seems that chatting on-line with Muslim fundamentalists can kill you, or, perhaps attempting to convert them will."
The wife and children who were butchered...they were chatting on line and attempting to convert?
I think not...
Posted by: jawa at January 22, 2005 11:35 PM
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