Willful ignorance does not win wars.
“Why We Are Bogged Down in Afghanistan,” by Pamela Geller, American Thinker, September 17, 2019:
Last Friday, I spoke at the Eagle Council in St. Louis, where both the speaker roster and the audience were full of stalwart, indomitable patriots. One of the patriots there was Mark Schneider, President of Gen IV Nuclear Inc. in Chesapeake, Virginia, who served for twenty years iand [sic] was on the ground in Iraq and Kuwait. He offered a disquieting insight into an important but overlooked reason why our lengthy military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have borne so little fruit.
Schneider was in the United States military from 1998 to 2018, years during which the primary threat that our nation faced was the global jihad, which was, after all, the reason why we had our forces in Iraq and Kuwait, as well as Afghanistan, in the first place. We had a long and fascinating conversation, but the most important takeaway was this: I asked him, “In all that time, from 1998 to 2018, were you given one class, or even one lesson, or were recommended one book, anything at all, that discussed Islam’s doctrine of warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers?
No. Not one.
Instead, all his training revolved around not offending Afghans’ cultural sensitivities. Schneider went for detention operations; his cultural training included subjects such as “What is Ramadan?” He and other American personnel were told not to eat or drink during the day, even though none of them were Muslim. They were allowed to eat and drink during the day when they were on military bases, but not off; American personnel were discouraged from consuming food while off military installations.
The other thing that Schneider and other American troops were taught was that if they were anything other than Muslim or Christian, they had to say they were Muslim or Christian, because, they were told, the Afghans “didn’t like other religions.” They were only allowed to say they were adherents of the religions of the God of Abraham, although of course they were not to mention Judaism.
They were also told not to wave at people with their left hand or ever touch anyone with that hand, as it was considered unclean. Also, men were warned not to speak directly to women.
That was about it. Nothing, nothing whatsoever, on why the enemy was fighting against us. Nothing about how the enemy viewed the world and what he was trying to achieve. The first rule of warfare is “Know your enemy,” and our troops have been and are woefully ill-equipped in that regard. They know how not to wave at the enemy, but they know nothing about his motives and goals….
The unexpected voice says
The goal should be destroying Taliban and may be trying to knock some sense into Afghans’ head
gravenimage says
Sadly, most Afghans support the Taliban–and of those who do not, most support the same kind of Islamic savagery.
Christina Pansy says
Correct.
Sabri S says
because the Taliban are afghans you idiot!!! Did you really say this right now? The
US/YOU are the occupiers and racist terrorist. GTFO of afghanistan before you get blown out!! who the hell occupies a 3rd world country for almost 2 decades with nothing to show for it. The Taliban are 100X better than any US installed puppet regime! The Taliban will be back in power again within a year, preferably after eliminating the 15,000 occupying US troops beforehand!
don vito says
Many Afganis are in western prisons and jails, Coming to the west where they commit hideous crimes against humanity, Aghanis where not always moslem. How did islam come to Afghanistan? By conquest! The Taliban are the puppets of islam, trying to force all to accept submission. The Taliban may be back in power, but the future is a long time, staying in power is beyond their skill level.
gravenimage says
Sabri S wrote:
because the Taliban are afghans you idiot!!! Did you really say this right now?
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Ashraf Ghani is Afghan, as is Hamid Karzai. This is not just about the Taliban being Afghan; it is because they want to impose the horrors of Shari’ah again. There are a handful of Shia–who were being subjected to genocide by the Taliban–and some somewhat more liberal and agnostic Afghans who oppose them–but they are pretty thin on the ground.
More:
The
US/YOU are the occupiers and racist terrorist. GTFO of afghanistan before you get blown out!!
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What is “racist” about trying to help Afghanistan become a civilized nation, I ask again? As I noted, this is really quite the opposite.
More:
who the hell occupies a 3rd world country for almost 2 decades with nothing to show for it.
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It wasn’t for want of proffered opportunity. It is that few Muslims want to live like civilized people.
More:
The Taliban are 100X better than any US installed puppet regime!
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Well, this is true if you like genocide, using soccer stadiums for mass executions, and stoning women to death–as we know Sabri S. does.
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The Taliban will be back in power again within a year,
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Sadly true. The Afghan people will do little or nothing to stop this.
More:
preferably after eliminating the 15,000 occupying US troops beforehand!
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This, alas, is how Muslims think–and all the more reason to leave these Mohammedans to their own devices.
Infidel says
For all their claims about Islamic, the Taliban doesn’t represent all Afghans, just the Pashtuns. You have other Jihadist militias in that country representing their various tribes – Hazaras, Tajiks, Turks and so on.
I do agree that the US troops should be out of Afghanistan, but not for the reasons that you state. Also, the next time a 9/11 like thing is even plotted, let alone executed, we should go out and level that country to sand. But no nation building this time – not even writing a constitution
After all, you savages have the Qur’an, so what else would you need? Right? Right?!?
The unexpected voice says
You know what? I’m not even an American nor the west. But why do I hate Islam? Very easy because your death cult killed 270 million people and practising slavery long before the west. Also, return your occupied land of Balkan strait and Asia minor. I’m not even Greek. but hear it out Constantinople will be free.
gravenimage says
Yes, The unexpected voice–Islam targets *all* non-Muslims, all over the world.
Wellington says
Afghanistan is even worse than Vietnam where the American military were also not “allowed to win.”
You win or you lose. We “lost” in Vietnam, not because the American military did not perform superbly but because the political and other elites in America did or said stupid shit (e.g., the “so respectable” Walter Cronkite). Anyone doubting me here, just read the chapter on the Tet Offensive of 1968 by Victor Davis Hanson in his great work, Carnage and Culture.
So, in effect, the ever clueless American elites have learned nothing from the Vietnam War. Yes, it’s a somewhat different kind of cluelessness but it’s still just as unforgivable.
Meanwhile, the American military, which was allowed to overwhelmingly help win previous wars like WWI and WWII (because we could name the enemy and sought total victory), is still fodder for stupidity par excellence, courtesy of America’s utterly clueless elites, which elites, in full willful ignorance mode, deny even to themselves, let alone to others, the very obvious, i.e., that Islam is totally fucked up, a dire enemy of freedom, and which religion represents mankind at just about its worst.
Gotta’ go. Need a beer. Who of sense and knowledge wouldn’t need a drink or two after reflecting upon how many times mankind never learns and, a la Ayn Rand, what an enormous cost this dearth of learning costs mankind.
mccode says
Victor Davis Hanson is a remarkable historian and speaker. I think he was also the academic advisor to Raymond Ibrahim during his university days. Both are excellent sources of accuracy.
gravenimage says
All grimly true, Wellington.
Infidel says
Actually, Wellington, we won that war in 2001 itself: by December, the Taliban had lost both Kabul and Kandahar. The next 18 years were spent on nation building, which was a ridiculous exercise. Now we have the options of throwing good money after bad, or conceding that the trillions wasted on that war was just money down the drain
The biggest evidence that we had no business helping them put together a ‘constitution’? Their law that allows for the death penalty for apostasy from Islam
gravenimage says
We should have pulled out at that point.
Infidel says
We should have started the pullout in Jan 2002, particularly given that we were willing to do nothing about Fuckistan – the country that actually harbored Osama – not in their ‘wild west’ Waziristan, but just on the outskirts of their capital, in Abbotabad!
Iraq too – we should have pulled out while the Iraqis pulled down Saddam’s statues, and left completely after we found no WMDs. Should have just left it to Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia to duke it out
Joe says
We should have never went to Afghanistan. OBL was in Iran when we went to Afghanistan. It was reported in the press, but it did not become a major story. In 2010, OBL went to Pakistan. We did kill some of the AQ in Afghanistan. All of our wars in the ME are not in the USA’s interest.
Infidel says
No, he was not in Iran. There are plenty of things that Iran can be indicted on, but this was never one of them. By now, 8 years after his death, it should be obvious – he escaped from Tora Bora to Pakistan, and was sheltered there by Gen Musharraf, even while the latter was busy smooching up President Bush, who was stupid enough to fall for it. Iran has 2 stooges in Afghanistan – Hizb e Wahdat, a Hazara Shia militia, and the Herat warlord Ismail Khan. They don’t have much influence w/ either the Tajiks nor the Pashtuns.
Look, we were right to attack Afghanistan after 9/11, but after December of 2001, we should have stopped and started scanning Pakistan, ignoring everything that Musharraf lied to us about. Remember, every major al Qaeda leader was captured in major cities in Pakistan – Ramzi bin al Shib, Abu Zubaida, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, et al. Which is why we should have not let go of them, and after we did hunt down Osama, we should have bombed Pakistan’s military heavily and destroyed their nuke capabilities. So that they could become a part of Afghanistan’s civil war themselves, and not actively spread terrorism to other countries, including the US and India
Christina Pansy says
Very well said. Bravo.
Wellington says
Infidel: I agree with what you said. Both in Afghanistan and Iraq we needed to temporarily go in and take out the Taliban and Saddam Hussein respectively. We did this. Thereafter we should have put some secular authoritarian in charge, forget about nation building and establishing democracy in a Muslim nation (which can’t be done because true democracy requires liberty and Islam and liberty are not reconcilable). If necessary we could have kept a small amount of Special Forces in said country or nearby in case more military action proved necessary. But nation building a Muslim nation is a fool’s errand and it’s the American military that has had to pay the price for this foolishness more than any other group of Americans, among which are the American taxpayers.
Islam is hopeless and the best we can do is contain it and ideally have a secular authoritarian run a not too ruthless of a regime (a Mubarak type v. a Saddam Hussein type). The Saudis are disgusting but more disgusting is Iran so for the time being we need to side with the former just as we had to side with Stalin against Hitler.
I wish the whole world was democratic because no two full democracies have gone to war with one another over the past century. Democracies have an overwhelming tendency to work out their differences without resorting to war. Sadly and stupidly, so many nations, both Islamic and non-Islamic, are not free and herein lies the root of the problem. America, as the great power, has the thankless job of policing the dysfunctional areas of the globe which are indeed many. For this it gets little praise and much scorn. But we should engage in this as knowledgeably and as tough as possible, which would, once again, not include trying to engage in nation building of an Islamic polity.
Infidel says
Wellington, I don’t think we could have installed a secular authoritarian on our own, b’cos any such person would have been regarded as our puppet, defeating the very purpose of having him.
A better model would have been what ultimately happened in Egypt and looks like happening some day in Libya. In Egypt, after the Muslim Brotherhood regime imploded, Gen Sisi took over, and has done reasonably well, although Egypt remains a hotbed of jihad. Right next door, in Libya, the successor government to Gadaffi has been inept, but Gen Haftar has done a good job seizing much of that country, and I see no good reason why the US can’t recognize him. Yeah, he’s been recognized by countries like Russia and Syria, but also by ‘US allies’ like Saudi Arabia and Egypt. And all indications are that his control would restore order in Libya, w/o becoming what Gadaffi was before the 1986 bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi by the US
Wellington says
Again I am in agreement with you, Infidel. I could have worded things better by indicating that we needed a secular authoritarian (e.g., in Iraq perhaps an officer from SH’s military) who was not seen at least overtly to have been appointed by the Americans but whom the Americans approved of and who thereafter followed a slightly pro-American or neutral policy. After all, geopolitics demands that many games be played and what I just mentioned serves as an example.
Infidel says
Wellington, for Iraq, I think the best model would be to recognize that we have no allies there – not Turkey, not Syria, certainly not Iran – and act from there. Support an independent Kurdistan out of both Iraq and Syria, and potentially extended into Iran and Turkey. Load them up w/ arms as generously as we’ve done Saudi Arabia, and have them get a clean passage to the Mediterranean via Jordan and Israel, where they can export their oil.
But tie such a recognition to conditions, such as they not only be secular, but also a haven for non Muslims of the region – Syraic Christians, Yazidis, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Zoroastrians, Mithraists and so on (not sure about Druze or Bahai). If they do this, support a Kurdish state. That also disrupts Iran’s Shia crescent that runs from Iran thru Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. And make it clear to Erdogan that if he stands in the way, that the US would support even Turkey’s Kurdish areas becoming a part of this new country. And Iran too – make it clear to them that if they’re destroyed, they too would lose their Kurdish areas
Wellington says
Not a bad strategy in theory, Infidel, but as even Hugh Fitzgerald here at JW has noted, Kurds, our best Muslim allies in that sad-ass region of the world, have nonetheless been oppressing non-Muslims with regularity. Yes, Kurds are the optimal Muslims in the geopolitical area we are dealing with, but they are still Muslim and herein lies again the great negative, to wit, when dealing with any group of Muslims, assume nothing, be on your guard and know full well that ANY Muslim is a deficient human being, only the degree functioning as a variable.
Still, your strategy has merit, especially if considered by the divide and conquer approach and accompanied by non-negotiable demands. Nonetheless, it is an uphill battle. It always will be if Muslims are “in the mix” because they are, more or less, invariably a burden to the human race.
Infidel says
Wellington, agreed! Which is why I suggested that the Kurds could get all that, but only IFF (if and only if, as it spells in Math) they become a genuine secular society, w/ full rights and refuge for non-Muslims. NOT OTHERWISE!
gravenimage says
Good exchange, Wellington and Infidel.
ntesdorf says
It sounds likethe US military in Afghanistan is receiving instruction in full Sharia compliance rather than any useful information on how to destroy the Taliban and stabilise Afghan society.
gravenimage says
The Afghan constitution is Shari’ah compliant. They have put stoning back on the books.
Daniel Triplett says
The military, for whatever reason, still operates on the idea that we’re fighting a TMOE, Tiny Minority of Extremists, who are hijacking a great and noble religion.
Never is there any discussion of “Islam” and its adherents as the enemy.
PRCS says
But:
There is NOTHING stopping acdu/reservist/military personnel from researching the subject using their own personal computers at home–or on deployment where such use is permitted.
Military bases usually have libraries, books/magazines for sale, newspapers, etc.
Many active duty personnel live off base and have even greater access to libraries, bookstores, newspapers and such.
IMO, there is NO reason for military personnel to NOT know–18 years post 9/11–at least the basics: despite the failure/refusal off ‘leaders’ to inform them.
Daniel Triplett says
Agreed.
Of course, policy and ROE come straight from the Oval Office. Trump’s opinion is the only one that really matters right now. Only he knows what he truly believes. Based on his rhetoric in 2016, I thought he had clear eyes about Islam. But I see little evidence of that now.
gravenimage says
I think that Trump is solidly anti-Jihad–a very good thing, and this should be the minimum we expect from our leaders.
But beyond this–like so many–he seems to understand little about Islam, and this leads to so many incoherent policies we see all over the West.
PRCS says
Agree, too. He, and those below in coc still refer to “radical Islamic terrorism”.
gravenimage says
Why We Are Bogged Down in Afghanistan
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We cannot civilize this barbaric stretch of Dar-al-Islam, and not even letting our brave men and women know who is killing them and what their foul ideology is. Time to get out long since.
Infidel says
That war is already won, just like the Iraq war was won when President Bush XLIII stood on that ship w/ the ‘Mission Accomplished’ sign
He happened to be right – if only he had followed the logical next steps and immediately pulled out. Had Iraq plunged into a 3 way civil war, it would have been their problem, as well as Iran’s, Syria’s and Saudi Arabia’s, not ours
gravenimage says
Largely agree.
Christina Pansy says
Yes.
rubiconcrest says
Stunning admission by an ex military member. I’d like to know if he every inquired about getting additional training on Islam?
PRCS says
Or looked it up himself.
gravenimage says
Yes, people should look this up themselves. But many won’t, or will not even think to. Not teaching our soldiers about the threat of Islam endangers them all.
PRCS says
But, ‘many- leaves an unknown number who will–and have.
I’d be willing to bet more of them know than one might think.
gravenimage says
I very much hope so, PRCS.
Gray says
Why did any Western country ever bother going into Afghanistan, in the first place? Why did any country ever put its young men and women in Harm’s way, in that God-forsaken hole? And for what? The gratitude of a bunch of ignorant tribesmen? And this particular idiocy has gone on for centuries, it seems like. Rudyard Kipling (born 1865) could advise the soldier of Imperial Britain in these terms:
‘When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, just roll on your rifle and blow out your brains, and go to your God like a soldier.’
Can’t help thinking of another quote, this one attributed to Albert Einstein:
‘Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I’m not so sure about the universe …’
Singleton Mosby says
The only reason we’re still in Afghanistan is that the U.S. has two airbases there, each of which can be used to launch air strikes against Iran, which is at the top of Israel’s hit list, since it wants nukes — which the Jewish State has had for decades. The U.S. doesn’t care one bit about what the Taliban does to the Afghan people. We are simply mercenaries for the Jewish State.
gravenimage says
Right–that why so many Americans have fought and died to try and bring democracy to Afghanistan…sarc/off
The idea that it is only Jews who oppose Jihad is just grotesque.
PRCS says
“The idea…”
To say that’s your opinion is one thing.
To state it as a fact is to misinform.
gravenimage says
PRCS, *surely* you aren’t agreeing with “Singleton Mosby” that the US is controlled by the ‘perfidious Jews’?
And do you really think that it is only Jews who oppose Jihad? Isn’t this proven false every day at Jihad Watch? This is not just an opinion. There are many Gentile Anti-Jihadists–including, of course, both of us.
PRCS says
My mistake. Up too late. Was actually to Mosby’s “We are simply mercenaries for the Jewish State.”
gravenimage says
Oh–*thank you*, PRCS. Very much agree.
Ginny says
Our goal should be to get out of the drug and human trafficking business there. Bad Karma, for one. But as long as higher ups have financial interests in drugs and slaves, we will be there with boots on the ground, pand the Taliban, which we set up, will keep taking the wrap. Islam is a very useful tool in proxy wars, which does not make it any less deadly or expansionist. But we do have to look at the bigger picture.
gravenimage says
Ginny, you re mistaken in believing that we are engaged in drug and human trafficking in Afghanistan. Why would you think such a thing?
And the idea that we created the Taliban–which is an Islamic Jihad terror group, is absurd. We do not wage Jihad. Implying that Islam is not a threat, but that the US is, is just disgusting.
Patriotliz says
Let us not be “willfully ignorant” and ignore the fact that the real reason we are bogged down in Afghanistan is because our Afghan Muslim “allies” and the Muslim Taliban “baddies” share the same core ideology of Islam. Our soldiers are nothing more than dhimmi kaffir Janissaries fighting on behalf of one group of Muslims against another group jockeying for power. Even those Afghan Muslims who are supposedly the lesser of the two evils “legally” kill apostates and exploit the Bacha bazi boys.
Linde Barrera says
I have asked myself many times over the years why US troops are still in Afghanistan and I have concluded that it was so weapons manufacturers could bill the US government and get their lethal creations tested on the ground and in the air of Afghanistan. It is akin to a “test kitchen” for creating new recipes. That is my thinking based on everything I have read. I do not own stock in any weapons manufacturing corporations. I welcome any and all facts to shed more light on this topic.
gravenimage says
I’m not that cynical, Linde. I think that many are still hoping that Afghanistan can become civilized–you even here that from Anti-Jihadists here sometimes. The other fear–a valid one–is that things will be even worse when we leave. This is true, but we cannot continue to waste the lives of our brave troops for such a slight improvement as this one.
Chand says
Afghanistan and the foreign troops there is a difficult problem. ‘Damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ situation.
Leaving Afghanistan to the Taliban would be courting huge trouble in the future. Focused global jihadis would again find shelter for further plotting to attack Infidels worldwide. This risk is too big and cannot be taken and so the foreign troops stay as local Afghan troops are still largely inefficient or corrupt.
Giving lessons on Islamic theology to the foreign troops will improve their general knowledge but I really don’t see how it can make any significant contribution on the military situation on the ground.
Jihadis are keen to attain paradise by fighting the infidels (or they just can’t tolerate foreigners on their soil or a bit of both) and become martyrs.
Whether the infidel enemy is aware of the finer points of Islam won’t matter to them, I guess.
gravenimage says
No–our troops should not be kept ignorant of the enemy they face.
Chand says
Fine. Teach them the Koran.
For the many Muslims fighting jihadis the Koran is an inspiration to fight evil, injustice, corruption, wickedness and all bad things. It gives them the strength to face terror and death.
Who knows, it just might help some Infidel soldiers too.
And oops! one or two might convert……………
gravenimage says
Chand wrote:
Fine. Teach them the Koran.
For the many Muslims fighting jihadis the Koran is an inspiration to fight evil, injustice, corruption, wickedness and all bad things. It gives them the strength to face terror and death.
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The Qur’an teaches Jihad, as the dishonest Chand knows full well. What pious Muslims consider “injustice, corruption, wickedness and all bad things” are mostly women and Infidels being allowed to live free of the Muslim heel.
Some Muslims fight other Jihadists, but very few reject Jihad itself–instead, this is usually no more than the usual Muslim vs Muslim internecine bloodshed.
More:
Who knows, it just might help some Infidel soldiers too.
And oops! one or two might convert……………
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Most of us are disgusted by the bloody savagery of Islam–not the appalling Chand, though.